Friday, December 16, 2011

Kubuntu should not use KDE only software (or should it?)


The last week, on the kubuntu-devel mailing list, we discussed the idea to distribute Kubuntu not only with the traditional CD, but also in a DVD containing all the software the user can need. Ok, codecs could have licence problems, but there are some interesting Dolphin service menu, some plasmoids, and software like the wonderful Kdenlive that could be included without troubles... It has also been proposed to release the system directly with Firefox installed. The proposal came from Felix Geyger, and immediately many people said it's a good idea (me too). Other developers, anyway, didn't liked it. Some of them said that Kubuntu must deliver only KDE software.
Personally, I don't like religious wars between KDE/GTK software (I don't like religious wars at all). Seems to me that "fragmentation" is one of the biggest problems of the FOSS world. This means that wonderful forces are practically wasted creating three similar programs working quite good, instead of creating only one that works very good.
In Italian, there's a good phrase to describe this situation (it's a little rude): "è come pisciare contro vento". That in English sounds "it's like pissing upwind". In fact, you are creating a problem bigger than the one you're trying to solve.
Some KDE programs are wonderful, never found anything better. But some of them are not so good: one of these is Rekonq. Using only KDE software on Kubuntu means it will became a distribution for "nerds" (it is not intended in an offensive way). I think that, if we want Kubuntu to be a real alternative for proprietary systems, we need to help the users that actually use Windows or MacOS to join our platform. The main way to do this is to let them use the maximum possible number of programs they already use. Actually, Firefox is used
by the 40% of the total users, Rekonq by less then 1%. What does this tell to you? Plus, remember that a Windows user or a MacOs user probably use Firefox, but he/she sure does not use Rekonq. Having the same applications they used to work with, on GNU/Linux systems, is the main request I get by the people I "drive" to
Kubuntu.
So I'm asking: what do you think about it?

58 comments:

  1. Actually, I think kubuntu should ship with firefox as default a long time ago. Rekonq is not really good (for now), usually crashes and then can not recover lost tabs (it only "recovers" the number of tabs with blank content instead). And the slowliness is another fact. So, as these problem hasn't been solved yet, I still prefer firefox (or chrome).
    Anyway, I still respect all the effort of developers who's making rekonq - a pure kde app which I will definitely use for my desktop if not because of these bugs. (there's also some others but I think they're negligible).

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  2. I completely agree. With regards to web browsers, I would rather see someone implement a qt version of firefox rather than push a different browser.

    Actually, rekonq is not that bad, anymore. But, "not that bad" isn't really what I am looking for. Particularly since there is a perfectly good opensource solution (firefox) already available.

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  3. It all depends on who you target. If you target windows users, you probably should provide firefox.

    I don't think I'll use firefox myself for a while and I don't like to have to clean up my distro waste after installing it.

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  4. It is very logical and good argument not to ship at all GTK+ applications when the goal is to offer a KDE experience. Same thing goes otherway around.

    The fact is, GTK+ and KDE applications has to totally different usability and targets different kind people.

    Most people really much love same look and functionality and hate when something goes differently. Example with GTK+ Open/Save dialog vs KDE Open/Save dialog.

    Even that it is possible to use same style (QtCurve, Oxygen) for widgets, the difference is still there.

    With other software than just applications, it works great. As system programs (bash, cp, ls, gcc...) and system libraries (glibc...) and all other system software (Apache, MySQL..) are just supporting each other with different manner but without actual graphical user interface what matters for normal computer user.

    I would add only KDE applications to Kubuntu.

    Open Source is not about competition, it is about joined efforts, a teamwork. Even that we have two (GTK+ and KDE) different application for same thing (Example Kdenlive and PiTiVi), they are not competiting but just giving different choices to different people, so everyone can be happy.

    Competition is state where every competitor and customer suffers greatly.
    Teamwork is state where there are choices for customer and best ideas are copied and developed together, without competition.
    In teamwork, there are multiple choices all the times available, what gives customers the real choice what matters. In competition, customers are forced to make long term choices in very limited knowledge and even with pure marketing lies.

    If we install something just because it is popular, it does not give changes to anyone else and it is same thing as supporting monopoly.
    same reason it is stupid and very biased when there are lists in different stores and webpages to get lists from "most popular" but not "most rarest" and "newest" choices.

    People know firefox, they can install it easily. I would say, install rekonq side of konqueror and make rekonq default. Give a change for it.

    There is saying "No one has ever fired because choosing market leader". What means, people believe that if something is popular, it is best choice. Look out Microsoft, it has its current market share not because it is best software, but because Microsft has dirtiest and cleverinest sale tactics to to get and maintaint such position.

    Some people like when winner is the one who is best cheater or best bluffer. But no one seems to like those who likes fair gameplay and teamwork. We are slaves of the capitalism and its "Competition is good" mantra. People do not want to think, they want to speak what someone else tells them to speak. They want to play safe. So they follow others.

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  5. you are talking about 40% firefox population to 1% Linux users? I agree with making one application which works beautifully but KDE is about an experience and it works well with software which integrates well with KDE workflow.
    Does adding Gtk apps hinder the KDE experience?

    Also seems ubuntu is heading the way you are arguing for, what create a different distro (kubuntu) when Ubuntu is going to be providing qt support and integration (Unity). I think you are arguing against yourself if you are making a case for non KDE additions to Kubuntu by default (i think the option to install is always there!)

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  6. if there is a solution to get an unified open/save-file-dialog für gtk AND qt/kde applications. i would love to have both on the disc. but for the moment this feels like a 'something is wrong here'-alien.

    all togetcher i would prefer chromium over firefox because its much better integradet in plasma.

    for rekonq.. well.. rename rekonq to "internet" and there will be more user. most of them dont understand that it is a browser ^^

    last of all.. you should talk about to give kubuntu an own style. not to ship plasma like upstream.
    post something on kubuntu.org that you guys look for desktopscreenshots. you will get 1000x or more. not analyze them and make a generic desktop for kubuntu, that is better than the upstream one

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  7. Scusa se scrivo in italiano ma mi pare che tu sia italiano come me.Io sono un ex utente italiano di Kubuntu che è passato da un annetto a Chakra,ovviamente per come vedo io le cose,sarebbe meglio piuttosto che usare un qualsiasi browser gtk, contribuire a promuovere i software in qt su distro kde come kubuntu o quanto meno contribuire a progetti come Firefox-qt o allo sviluppo di progetti come questo http://wiki.wxwidgets.org/WxQt/Status che renderebbero possibile l'uso di molti software attualmente dipendenti da gtk liberi da esso.Kubuntu sotto questo punto di vista ha potenzialità enormi sempre poco sfruttate rispetto a quelle che potrebbero essere le sue possibilità.Firefox lo si può sempre installare a posteriori se si vuole, peggio è trovarsi gtk preinstallato per chi non lo vuole su kde.Reconq sarà per geek ma non dimenticate che qualsiasi distro linux al momento è per geek.Se sei uno sviluppatore di kubuntu sai dirmi che fine ha fatto Lex? :D
    Ciao e buon lavoro comunque ;)

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  8. I don't see making a KDE browser a wasteful duplication, especially since the biggest chunk of it (webkit) is reused code. The bigger question is, does the unique part of the code give me tangible benefits that any other program of the same type wouldn't? In the case of rekonq, the answer is 'yes'.

    Sure you could just junk it and stick firefox on there, but what's the point of tech like akonadi, nepomuk, kio, etc if it doesn't integrate with the single most important program on my computer -- the browser. Last time I checked firefox doesn't even support dbus (maybe that's changed).

    Consider that lack of browser/desktop integration in the coming tablet/mobile/cloud/Metro/iOS age.

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  9. I fully agree with your point. I think lots of (especially KDE) distros cater to the advanced user that knows how to customize and install it all, but none tries to offer the best possible KDE-based "welcome to linux" experience, but with added stuff if needed.

    The Rekonq discussion is an excellent exemple, as was only konqueror before. Those who want to use them, can; but for most users they are just not enough. Getting a decent browser, this be firefox, chrome or chromium by default is an excellent idea.

    Another example is the muon software center. It unfortunately is still miles away from the Ubuntu Software Center. So why not ship ubuntu software center by default?

    There is such an example already in existence: libreoffice. It has been recognized that although koffice/calligra is KDE's alternative, it is clearly not enough, and so libreoffice is shipped. This is exacly the same as with the browser, in every way: libreoffice is skinned to look like kde apps, but barely, and you notice that it does not fit 100% with the desktop, but it's still miles ahead in functionality and stability from the current KDE apps. Exactly like rekonq and firefox.

    Other examples are for example kopete, which is still way behind all other alternatives (and I hope that at least kde-telepathy replaces it), ark, which still has that "if you click on a file I open a crappy preview mode, and you have to extract somewhere just to see it a decent app" and could be replaced by file-roller; kmix could be replaced by pavucontrol; also maybe replace kdm with lightdm.

    This is not to say that there aren't places where KDE's version is better. For example okular is clearly superior to evince. I would applaud canonical using okular to replace evince in the default ubuntu install; the same can be said of k3b and amarok.

    Finally, OF COURSE any such changes should not be done light-heartedly. But I do believe they should be considered. And us power users, we will still be able to change what we don't like.

    P.s.: Firefox in ubuntu has been patched to use kde dialogs. Other programs could also.

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  10. I love the idea. However, I hope you will try to avoid duplication - gstreamer is a default multimedia framework, so don't put VLC as the media player (but maybe use smplayer instead?). I'd love to see Firefox installed. I'd also love to be able to choose packages in graphical mode, so I won't have to install dozens of packages I won't ever use.

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  11. "Another example is the muon software center. It unfortunately is still miles away from the Ubuntu Software Center. So why not ship ubuntu software center by default?"

    Hell no! Don't make Kubuntu full of gnome trash like Fedora KDE spin... Firefox isn't gnome, so there are no objections against it.

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  12. Competitivity is a good thing, but we need to choose the right "enemy". Instead of fighting between oursleves, I think it would be smarter to fight proprietary systems. And we can do it only if we work together.
    We have two choices: make Kubuntu for everyone, expaing the "public" of this creation, or kepping it for ourselves, a little bunch of programmers.
    Be real: Rekonq is not ready for the big public (e.g.: Windows users). Admitting failiures is alway a good thing: we need to say "ok, Rekonq is not good, but Firefox yes. Firefox guys have done a better job."
    Choosing Firefox does not mean to "play safe". It means to be responsible and deliver users the best experience possible.
    When Rekonq will became easily usable, and with a better interface, we could think about using it as default browser.
    Obiously, if we use Firefox as default browser, we will keep installed also Rekonq: two browsers is better than one.
    Please, Fri13, remember that we are not fighting capitalism, or other political-economical concept: we are (just) trying to build the best OS possible. And, we are not Microsoft. I use to say a thing: "there are two ways to let people choose your products: the first one is to kill the competitors, the other is to have the best product". Since we are not Microsoft, we can't follow the first one, so we need to create a good product.
    There is a real fact: Firefox preinstalled is the main request we get from new users. What does this tells to you? Maybe you prefer Rekonq, but the majority of users does not. And, in democracy, we should follow the majority.
    By the way, the common users don't want to install things: they want to have them ready. And installing firefox is not so easy (we should improve many parts of the process, also for the installation of Flash-player and Java-JRE).
    For example: there are many childs that ask me to have a copy of Kubuntu, because they like it when I do my "lessons" at school. But I can't give them the Kubuntu CD, then teach them the concept of packages, how the package manager works, wich packages they need to install to have a fully working system, and all the other thing. They just need to go home, put the disc into the computer, follow the installation procedure pressing always the "next" button, and then start using Kubuntu.

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  13. "For example: there are many childs that ask me to have a copy of Kubuntu, because they like it when I do my "lessons" at school. But I can't give them the Kubuntu CD, then teach them the concept of packages, how the package manager works, wich packages they need to install to have a fully working system, and all the other thing. They just need to go home, put the disc into the computer, follow the installation procedure pressing always the "next" button, and then start using Kubuntu."

    I think you couln't have said it better. I've used KDE for >6 years now. But I still recommend ubuntu instead of kubuntu. Why? Exactly the same case as you refer: I believe that KDE has very strange defaults (folderview instead of desktop icons, keep sessions, activities very visible, limited browser, akonadi enabled by default and using resources [most users use web-based replacements for this], etc), and so I'm confident that I can give someone a ubuntu cd and say "have fun". For kubuntu/KDE I won't recommend it without afterwards giving a list of tips of what you probably want to change, disable, etc.

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  14. Just wanted to add another data point (DISCLAIMER: which is no longer valid -- knetworkmanager has been rocking a lot now, thanks to the great work of the developers!!). For years knetworkmanager (or its plasma version) were not able to connect to the cross-european eduroam university wifi network.

    So, for a number of years, lots of new users of KDE would install their shiny new leee-nux thing, and then proceed to not be able to get online to install packages needed for coursework, or just do anything else.

    So they would go back to gnome or even worse and normally what happened, to windows. Or just use a vm that was thrown away after it wasn't needed.

    This is one example where shipping nm-applet (like fedora did with KDE for a while) would have just been the better option.

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  15. Sure, making Firefox the default browser does not means to just ship it "as it is". We need to improve its integration. Actually, I use some addons that make it look like a KDE application: the same nice appearance, notifications into the KDE tray, when I click on a file, it is opened with the correct application (e.g: Okular for PDFs)... We just need to maintain those addons and maybe make them "official".
    I think it's better to "use" our developer to make Firefox well integrated in KDE, instead of making another web browser from scratch.
    The question is: why should some one do not want to have GTK+ installed on his/her distro? Since it's free software, it should not be a problem.
    Kubuntu Software Center could be great, if programmed in QML.
    Surely Kubuntu need to improve the design of KDE plasma, instead of simply redistributing the same classical version. But we need good designers... and it's a little more complicated than just integrating some programs, and we need to open another topic about this thing (I'm talking with some friends designers to have a good mockup for Kubuntu). Anyway, the first thing that everyone can notice, looking at Kubuntu, is that KDE miss that "labor limae" (it's latin, used in reference to poetry, it means "little improvements of the estetical form").
    @Lazy: sure actually every GNU/Linux distro is for geeks, but it will remain forever as it is if we don't make something to improve its "niceless" for non GNU/Linux users. This is exactly what I'm trying to propose. By the way I don't know anything of Lex, but maybe some other might tell you something about it.
    @IAnjo: just wanted to tell you that I had the same problem with "eduroam" wifi.

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  16. I love kde and qt. I love oxygen-transparent theme for windows, and the a specially I love kdefile picker contrast to that one in gnome-which is huge and ugly und unusefull.
    So I would like to have all in qt,kde itd.

    I've used rekonq for a few months, and it still need a lot to develope, but it is already great app,
    I think that kubuntu Shoud have more kde/qt apps than gtk(it is for ubuntu)
    even so I think that in kubuntu should be both of them, even the konqueror an chromium from google.
    because the web browser is the most usefull app for average user!!!

    so all kde apps and some great gtk apps like firefox, gimp, libre office should be contained in kubuntu

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  17. I remember Shuttleworth wrote about including best-of-the-breed apps in Ubuntu, doesn't matter which toolkit. I won't be surprised if we won't see a single QT app, as if unity will be QML only ;)

    Well, in KDE we already have gtk as far as we use flashplugin, gstreamer and libreoffice.
    And replacing Rekonq with Firefox is, logically, the first thing I do in a new install.

    My sight turns towards another app: vlc and its browser plugins, a very popular app instead of dragonplayer and gstremaer - or bangarang.

    Anyway since oneiric there's already a DVD spin and its metapackage, offering not much of a great selection of additional packages. I think that an informative greeter like found in opensuse or mint could be a much better welcomed change.

    To me Kubutnu Oneiric has probably the best default software selection out there, I like it being vanilla, its kcm modules addons, its upstrem efforts. I think that Precise is all about STABILITY end STYLE.



    ---
    Kubuntu Precise sarà tropo ben! ocio a do tira la bora! saludi da un sanpierin :P

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  18. Has no one suggested Chromium?

    It's far faster than Firefox.

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  19. For me, masterdany88 totally got it: "all kde apps and some great gtk apps like firefox, gimp, libre office should be contained in kubuntu".
    @Sam, Chromium have been suggested. Although it's a good browser, it have still some little troubles. And, Firefox is still the most used, so delivering it, we could "catch" a bigger part of public. But we could make the installation of Chromium easyer.
    I also thought to provide on the DVD both of them, and at the end of installation let the user choose the one he/her wants to use as default browser. But it could be seen as a complication.

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  20. about a visual refresh, you should contact the author http://martys.typepad.com/.a/6a012876e7556d970c0154377b6cc3970c-800wi

    - new oxygen color scheme (black buttons)
    - dark system tray icons
    - reduced scrollbars
    - new wallpaper
    - icons-only tasks widget (supports unity)

    and I add
    - oxygen-transparent (works fine even on a netbook)
    - kwin-appmenu (dbus menu in decorations)

    it would be great if the default wallpaper was present at its right size in grub, plymouth, lightdm and desktop.

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  21. Firefox developer here... just wanted to chime in to say that just because Firefox isn't well integrated in KDE today doesn't mean that can't be fixed ;-) There is a built-in option to use Qt, but it's currently only used on Meego so I expect it must not very ready as-is on a regular Linux desktop, but you could fix it ;-) Other bits of KDE integration could be done, too. Just, to be honest, don't expect Mozilla to do it for you as we're resource-constrained already and obviously KDE isn't the highest priority. But if you want a KDE-friendly contact at Mozilla, I'm here and can try to direct you to the right people. I'm :bjacob on Mozilla's bugzilla..

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  22. Thank you, Benoit, sure your help would be wonderful. Anyway, the first step is to convince the Kubuntu Council to integrate Firefox in Kubuntu.

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  23. I would really like to have a desktop environment only base on qt/KDE-apps, but as long as some of the lack features or easyness like Synaptic, OpenOffice.Org and Firefox, I will work with them. SO they should ship. But it would be also good, if the Kubuntu-team could convince canonical to hire someone to build a real KDE browser which supports extensions and userscripts. This are the main things which I miss.

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  24. What I really like to see in a distribution is a unified experience, and gtk apps don't integrate all the good they can in kde environment, sure, they can be close, but never perfect.
    It all depends on what people is kubuntu targeted to. If it's targeted for windows/mac users who just want a replacement, then putting firefox is a good idea. Otherwise, if it is targeted to people who want an unified and integrated experience, then shipping with all-kde (or all gnome) soft would be better.
    Both people can be satisfied if the all-the-same desktop is good enough, but at it's current state it needs more work(rekonq needs a lot of work to compete with firefox).
    So kubuntu should either, embrace the "integrated experience" of a kde-only distro (by default that is, never forced like chakra linux), Or embrace the "linux for humans beings" theme of ubuntu, and deliver the best software as integrated as it can be delivered.

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  25. I'm currently a Chakra user, and that means, NO GTK+ SOFTWARE IN THE REPOS (unless I want unionfs images mounted with their own GTK+ copies, and with the only exception of Flash). You could learn some things from their trickbook: instead of complaining about the status of KDE browsers, they a) found a way to separate Qt WebKit 2.2 from Qt 4.8 and deliver it untied to the higher Qt release; b) are pushing monthly git snapshots of Rekonq to our computers; c) allow us to install Chrome and Firefox, but favor Rekonq and Konqueror + KWebkitPart (all you've ever dreame d about Konqueror)

    The results are good. Chakra's Rekonq is a little buggy, but runs Google+ better than Opera, can drive the HTML5 version of Youtube, and even has 3D support. So, that's the way to go. Learn from Chakra. A lot.

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  26. I would also like to add the following food for thought: To get a more integrated KDE experience, we need more people using KDE. If in the short-term kubuntu uses gtk software, won't that, in the long term, bring more users, including more developers, that can then provide what is lacking?

    @ernestomanriquez: Should kubuntu just become chakra? Don't we have chakra already? Don't get me wrong, chakra is in the handful of distros I would ever consider for myself right now, but I believe that kubuntu could be aimed at a wider audience.

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  27. I'd say that yes, if we're aiming toward releasing a distro in the spirit of Timelord, we shouldn't limit ourselves by toolkit.

    A reaction that I've come across a few times when discussing Kubuntu is that it ships with 'toy' applications, where other distros ship the 'de facto standard' applications in the same area.

    Consider web browsers. The big three players are IE, Mozilla/Firefox and Chrome/-ium, ignoring Safari. But we ship rekonq, albeit with a Firefox installer on the side. If memory serves we dabbled with Arora for a bit. Before that, Konqueror.

    rekonq has come a /long/ way in terms of feature-completeness, and I don't mind rekonq for viewing some page real quick, but I would still recommend Chromium for regular everyday use.

    Expectancies of web browsers have soared since the advent of Firefox, and while I'm still hesitant to call any browser a stub if they're without extension/greasemonkey/scripting functionality, it's not by much. Extensions open up a can of worms and is a hell for developers getting swamped with NOTOURBUG crash reports, sure, but I *expect* browsers to have this.

    Don't get me wrong; I *like* alternatives and I tend to favor less-known applications over big and established ones. But not to the extent where I ignore priority by merit.

    Efforts like the Telepathy project with properly separated logic and presentation make me warm and fuzzy inside.

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  28. I've been fighting for keeping the Fedora KDE spin as pure KDE as possible, and in fact our default browser, and the only one we ship on the live CD, is and has always been Konqueror.

    This also reduces the amount of dependencies we need to ship, allowing us to make better use of the limited space available on a CD. Firefox and xulrunner are huge by themselves and also have many non-KDE dependencies.

    > Hell no! Don't make Kubuntu full of gnome trash like Fedora KDE spin...

    Huh? Have you tried the Fedora KDE spin lately? Yes, we were forced to ship some GNOME stuff in past releases as a temporary stopgap because the native KDE integration (for e.g. PolicyKit or NetworkManager) wasn't ready to be shipped in time for our release. (Kubuntu opted to ship some very buggy alpha versions of NetworkManager integration which totally failed our QA.) But these have now been replaced by native KDE equivalents (polkit-kde, kde-plasma-networkmanagement).

    We're doing what we can to ship only pure KDE, in fact we default to Konqueror and KOffice.

    > Firefox isn't gnome, so there are no objections against it.

    Firefox does use GTK+, and has optional (compile-time optional, which means in practice they'll always be enabled in major multi-desktop distros) dependencies on several other GNOME libraries, too.

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  29. IAnjo: No, Kubuntu shouldn't become Chakra. There are a lot more things that define a distro than the handling of a handful of packages. However, Kubuntu must *learn* from Chakra. And *learn a lot*. And that, as unbelievable as it sounds, has little to do with the decision.

    What Kubuntu must learn from Chakra is: if there are no KDE or Qt native alternatives, a) use GTK+ ones only as stopgaps; b) create real and credible alternatives to cut GTK+ dependencies. These are simple and clear principles, and Chakra has applied them. Remember that they cutted LibreOffice from its GTK+ dependencies (again: a real and credible alternative to cut GTK+ dependencies).

    What Kubuntu has to teach every KDE distro out there is usability. Please, Kubuntu devs: help upstream to improve its usability, and port upstream every Kubuntu-only real KDE improvement that does not depend on the Kubuntu stack (e.g. the Share Folder behavior in Kubuntu). Also, Kubuntu must lead the "papercut" effort: locate and fix usability bugs across all KDE.

    That's my opinion.

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  30. i'm for having firefox + chromium + libreoffice in kubuntu.

    i'm also for a smart detection of the computer performance, and for disabling strigi + nepomuk on netbooks, and also for using sqlite akonadi backend (as part of kubuntu-low-fat package).

    also recently i have vastly reduced amount of memory used by kubuntu by removing most of the desktop files in /usr/share/autostart/ especially the python-based applets.

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  31. Kevin Kofler: As the only feature request, please, ship Konqueror with a default search engine (you can cut a deal in the process :)), with the KWebkitPart enabled as default and without the separate search bar. You know how I love Fedora :)

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  32. and also please ship vlc instead of dragonplayer, plus clementine instead of amarok (esp. for netbooks)

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  33. Before thinking about inclduing or not including software you should STOP shipping beta software and then NOT updating it.
    When Pulseaudio was introduced, it was not yet suitable for KDE and guess what? No updates! 2 versions and 1 year later then it worked and I don’t want t miss it anymore but still.
    Then Xine was removed in favor of GStreamer, Xine is deprecated now but it works! Now in 12.04 finally I can listen to music without Amarok having it skip tracks at random or not being able to seek MP3s. Again: No updates for Phonon-Gst on 11.04 …
    And now I read you seriously think about replacing Kopete by Telepathy-KDE? Are you serious? This is an LTS release and how I got to know Kubuntu there will NOT be ANY updates to this, great! … In a beta PPA or whatever, granted, but not replacing Kopete. Do NOT do this! Same mess with NM, it works quite well now but 11.04 shipped a halfway broken version of the Plasma NM and there were also no updates for that.

    Do NOT ship Beta software without updating it!!! -.-

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  34. The issue is one of providing an integrated appearance. The average end user will not be concerned about whether they are using a GTK or Qt application but rather that each application appears integrated and functions accordingly.

    The Oxygen GTK Theme helps reduce the visual differences between GTK and Qt. Unfortunately GTK applications still use their own dialog boxes for file activities, plus there's a lack of integration with Nepomuk and other KDE tools.

    If Qt applications can use native GTK dialog boxes in GNOME, why can't GTK applications use native KDE dialog boxes in KDE?

    This would provide a much greater user experience than worrying about whether an application is GTK or Qt.

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  35. as many have noted - Rekonq is not quite "production ready" yet as proved, if nothing else, by the 0.8 version numbering. It crashes now and then (try upload in Google+) and has issues. So I think IF we discuss a DVD with "bonuses" why not FF or Chromium installed? I use both, at this moment leaning towards Chromium. The "KDE style FF" is quite nice.

    Rekonq developer(s) should continue their efforts, providing alternatives less prone to crashing is not deferring their effort as I see it.

    And what "war"? The day someone develops a QT Remastersys I will use it, til then I use the existing version.

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  36. Thanks for sharing your info. I really appreciate your efforts and I will be waiting for your further write ups thanks once again.
    Vee Eee Technologies

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  37. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  38. Ok, let's clear some points: having Firefox as default browser does NOT means we will remove Rekonq.
    I can't understand why the hell someone should want a GTK+ free distro: it is free software, and if it works a lot better than the KDE similar applications we should think to use it.
    So, what's the problem with GTK+?
    It is absolutely not true that GTK+ programs don't integrate correctly in KDE: maybe natively yes, but there are some plugins that do this very good (Kubuntu has a tab in the system settings called "GTK appearance"). Gimp, Inkscape, and Chromium work just good. Firefox has some other troubles, but with addons (like "plasmanotify", for example) all these could be solved.
    We just need to turn these "hacks" to the normality, so there will be a perfect integration. The Free Software philosophy is about unifing the world, not dividing it. Only proprietary software uses fences to let you do a limited numer of things.
    VLC is the best player I ever seen, but also dragon player is nice. So we could ship both of them. For me, Amarok it's nice.

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  39. @Kevin Kofler said

    "Huh? Have you tried the Fedora KDE spin lately?"

    Yes, I tried Fedora 16 with both, CD and DVD. They're full of trash from gnome. There are dozens of mess like gobject, zenity, gtk2, gtk3, gnome keyring etc. That's the main reason I have switched to Kubuntu.

    "Yes, we were forced to ship some GNOME stuff in past releases as a temporary stopgap because the native KDE integration"

    With all respect I'm not just talking about applications, but about packages that are installed. It seems anaconda doesn't remove gnome stuff after installation.

    "Firefox does use GTK+, and has optional (compile-time optional, which means in practice they'll always be enabled in major multi-desktop distros) dependencies on several other GNOME libraries, too."

    The same about gstreamer that is used in Kubuntu - it brings gtk2 and libgnome-keyring as far as I remember, so overall Firefox won't be exclusive.

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  40. wtf

    only kde software? ok

    konqueror = love but sucks
    rekonq = sucks
    arora = sucks
    other 1000 webkit qt browser = sucks

    so what ? you will release something that sucks?

    the most of user when they install kubuntu do this :

    sudo apt-get install vlc firefox chromiun-browser && sudo apt-get remove rekonq

    rekonq is not a stable good browser is an experimental stuff that should not be include in something that should be human being

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  41. @Nick Shaforostoff

    "and also please ship vlc instead of dragonplayer, plus clementine instead of amarok (esp. for netbooks)"

    No way! Why would someone want such duplication? If you want VLC then vote for phonon VLC backend, too. I hope this won't happen, because gstreamer backend is more complete. Clementine isn't as half as good as Amarok which is a flagship KDE audio player.

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  42. My opinion is to put on kubuntu dvd only kde apps, then you can make a metapackage to install the best gtk apps. For example, kubuntu-desktop is a metapackage... you can make... let's see... kubuntu-best-gtk :)
    Then put on the desktop a plasmoid to install kubuntu-best-gtk metapackage. So you'll make everybody happy! kde lovers like me and pragmatic people like you! :-)

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  43. @Paolo: my proposal is to have a Kubuntu CD with only KDE software, and a DVD with everything the user can need (and who cares if it's made with kdelibs or GTK+, the important thing is that it works).
    Actually, Kubuntu is just an Ubuntu with KDE application instead of GTK+ ones. It does not add anything useful to the community. But if Kubuntu starts to improve the integration of GTK+ applications in the K Destop Environment, then Kubuntu will have a purpose. This could also be the starting point to improve the appearance of KDE itself (since, as I said, it miss a "labor limae").

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  44. @Luca
    I understand your point and I know there are some important gtk apps (firefox, chromium, openoffice, etc), that's the reason I've proposed kubuntu-best-gtk metapackage.

    However i think we should fill the dvd with kde apps in first place, because there are many kde applications that people don't know. The dvd'll be free advertising for them and maybe they'll find new users and new developers. :)

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  45. @Paolo: Sure we can do it. There are a lot of wonderful KDE application people does not know (for example, a month ago I had to prepare a cover for a DVD, and I used the pretty KoverArtist) but there are just some GTK+ application (GIMP, Inkscape, Firefox) that people will surely use. So we could ship them directly in the DVD with all the other KDE apps. As nowardew said, we know people will install them, so why don't deliver them ready? Then, if you want only KDE software, you can always choose the Kubuntu CD, that will not have GTK+ applications. Isn't it simple? We will have two "flavours" of Kubuntu: one with only KDE software, the other with GTK+ applications well integrated in the desktop environment. The metapackage is not a solution: common users want to have everything ready, they don't even know how the package manager works (I'm thinking about the children that ask me to have Kubuntu).

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  46. @Kal Uwe: I agree absolutely. Another thing Kubuntu must learn from Chakra is the "half rolling" release model. If you ship a beta package, and the next month, upstream releases the bugfixes, please, don't make me add a PPA to get the fixes (or wait for Kubuntu release+1). Keep a stable and small base (kernel, X, glibc, gcc, bootscripts), freeze it for 6 months, and allow updating apps.

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  47. I agree with having a KDE-only "clean" Kubuntu cd, but that should not be the default version on the Kubuntu site.

    As Luca pointed out with the case of the metapackage, we cannot say "we'll have the power-user version, and any normal user can just install and change what he wants"; we have to do the reverse -- make the "normal user" version highly visible, but also make it easy for the power user to have his awesome customized kubuntu experience.

    To the people suggesting smplayer or vlc: remember that for those applications we cannot only talk about "this one is nicer than the other", we have to talk codecs and non-free stuff, so I think only gstreamer-based players are acceptable for this -- at least right know; I don't know how hard would be to create a crippled version of mplayer or vlc like suse did to xine in the past.

    But yeah, dragonplayer is just awful.

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  48. @lAnjo
    it's OT but i've to ask you: is awful also
    dragonplayer3? ;)

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  49. I concede that CD space issues are valid concerns, and I concede that GNOME applications seldom integrate well with KDE technologies behind the scenes. Oxygen-GTK is *very* good at hiding most of it from the user. But overall I dislike the Not-Invented-Here syndrome that inevitably creeps in between "rivaling" projects.

    A piece of code is always someone's lovechild though, so it would be unreasonable to tell gedit devs "guys, don't duplicate effort, just go work on runtime/compile-time GNOME <-> Kate integration instead", but if we were all Vulcan that would be the logical thing to do.

    Regardless, duplicated effort is still worth avoiding whenever possible, which is why separated toolkit-independent logic and toolkit-dependent presentation is so glorious. Phonon backends are genius too, and I look forward to LightDM and Telepathy.

    I *laud* those who work on interoperability and integration between workspaces/environments. Many heart-shaped cookies go to you.

    But I digress.

    @ernestomanriquez
    This is basically what the PPAs allow for, isn't it? As far as I understand things Canonical is pretty adamant about keeping repo versions frozen post-release. Kubuntu's cabin is still on Canonical's ship.

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  50. If people are so set on including Firefox, why not use openSUSE's version with KDE integration? This has already been argued and resolved elsewhere. It has KDE dialogs and program chooser, among other things.

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  51. @Josh: Kubuntu already ships that version.

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  52. As a former chakra developer, and now user, I can tell my reasons I don't use (K)Ubuntu. And it's not because it does or does not include firefox. It's the half-rolling release model, which is quite cool to me.

    As far as it concerns me, there is a lot of work ahead for the toolkits, qt and gtk+, to make linux a better integrated desktop experience, especially in styling. A lot of approaches have been taken there, and I'm glad about that, but I think we're just very far away of a common look&feel - especially the feel part, which is part of the usabilty experience where the desktops seem to have their differences :-).

    For me, a Desktop and what it is about is, to deliver the "best" experience (which is of course not too objective) a user can expect. Regardless of toolkits, that should be the goal. The toolkit, afterall, should be what developer chooses, but it should not have ans effect on the end users as it currently often has.

    As far as it concerns me, KUbuntu should deliver a kde based distribution, but not a kde-only distribution. This means of course the whole KDE Desktop in all it's shining forms, but choose the best application so the user can get the job done, and integrate it properly.

    In chakra, we can see raising interest in our bundle system, since users want their LibreOffice, they want their Firefox, Chrome or gimp. Even if KDE and all the people writing qt and kde based software are doing a great job, I don't think the toolkit should decide if an app should be included or not - not even if it should be included in a default installation or not.

    I don't favour GTK+ programs for one reason: I have no clue of GTK+, and I don't intend to change that. The main reason is, that I as a developer can't really fix things, due to a lack of knowledge. But a common user will not really care about that.

    Do as Ubuntu tells you to: Focus on the users, and their best experience. If it's a GTK+ app, it's a GTK+ app. I don't see a big problem in that.

    I like the approach OpenSuSE is taking, even though, due to nasty bugs in their installer system with GPT, I can't install it [at all] (not even using the full-format auto option).

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  53. I agree that rekonq is not ready for prime time, and really shouldn't be the default browser in any distribution.

    That being said, I think that most of the applications in KDE are as good or better than those on Mac/Windows, in functionality if not always stability. vlc is probably better than the default video players, but that's true on Mac/Windows as well.

    I believe that it's probably more worthwhile for developers to spend time integrating Firefox or Chromium (not to mention vlc) into KDE than in developing their own browser, but of course if people want to work on something that's their right.

    But as an end-user, you're probably less concerned with which exact things are included than that everything simply works.

    BTW, I have created an instruction file that gives a straightforward set of steps to make a usable Kubuntu installation on my System 76 machine with an nVidia graphics card. See here:

    http://mitchgolden.com/computers/kubuntu-11.10.txt

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  54. @enodo: Thank you for the file, I wrote something similar, but yours is more complete.

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  55. welll i did this

    http://nowardev.wordpress.com/usefull-link-for-kubuntu-and-multimedia-stuff/setkubuntuproperly/

    and of course this one :D

    http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php/Plasma+Panels+Collection+?content=147589

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  56. The thread has pretty much died down, but I would also like to suggest -- if there is some free space in the kubuntu DVD, that the "gparted" partition manager be included.

    It is a truly best-of-breed application to do anything you want with your partitions, and very useful when you want a very specific partition arrangement that the installer doesn't allow you to do (and also for rescue and disk cloning).

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  57. @IAnjo: in the KDE "systemsettings" there is a partition manager. For me, the KDE Partition Manager is better that Gparted (it has a cleaner interface, and gives you all the details you need for troubleshooting.

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  58. For a pure-KDE, i consider it stands already CHAKRA; better if KUBUNTU keeps its way - being both with its own advantages.

    Unfortunately i had to abandon CHAKRA beacuse my notebook was burning all the time due to its AMD880G+ATI4250; so ati-legacy drivers are needed under (up to) Xorg-1.2, thanks Kubuntu.
    Now at 67°C (16°C coller) hope to survive until the free ati driver is fixed

    note: I like absolutely the half-rolling-release approach for any Linux distro.

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